Saul Williams
BETWEEN ROCK AND A HARD PLACE
Hip-Hop Poet Saul Williams Delves Deeper into Punk-Hop
With the release of his debut disc, spoken-word artist and actor Saul Williams transformed into an Amethyst Rock Star, fusing Jimi Hendrix–fueled rock, old-school hip-hop, and politically charged, Gil Scott-Heron–styled poetry. On his self-titled follow-up, Williams -- who recorded a version of the "Not in Our Name" initiative's "Pledge of Resistance" against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan -- takes his rock-rap fusion a step further. Prior to the release of Saul Williams, he discussed his abstract, mad-scientist approach to music making with Barnes & Noble.com's John Carluccio.
Barnes & Noble.com: How would you describe this album?
Saul Williams: I describe the album as industrial punk-hop. If I had to fit it into a category, I'd call it "grippo." [laughs] That's what I call this style of music.
B&N.com: "Grippo" is a song on the album.
SW: Yeah, I've been spending the past four years trying to create a sound with a friend that we called grippo. We were sitting around joking one day and saying, "What are our kids going to listen to?" I guess I said something like, " They are going to listen to something crazy. It's going to be called grippo." So that's where the song came from.
B&N.com: Can you describe the grippo sound?
SW: It's just crazy sounding, production-wise. This album is different from my last one, Amethyst Rock Star, because this album is much more song driven. The last album was more like poetry over banging beats. This album is much more about song format. I wanted to have three parts -- verse, chorus, and verse.
B&N.com: I saw the documentary, Afro Punk, which showed that there are a lot of black artists making alternative rock music. What do you define as Afro punk?
SW: My music is Afro punk. It's still hard-core, but un-thugged. It's not white rock. We can choose what aspect of our experience we want to pull from -- from Jimi Hendrix to Chuck Berry. The groundwork for hard-core punk was laid by Bad Brains. At the same time we were laying down the groundwork for hip-hop in New York, other black guys in D.C. were laying down the groundwork for hard-core punk.
B&N.com: What was your songwriting process like for Saul Williams?
SW: When I wrote "African Student Movement," I was driving, going through radio stations, and I stopped on an urban station. I heard an R. Kelly song that I'm killing myself for liking. I think it was, "Fiesta," with Fat Joe.
B&N.com:You can't deny that R. Kelly produces clever beats.
SW: Yeah, I couldn't deny it. I was like, "This is so dope!" I need a song with a beat like that. So I went home and made a beat like it. "African Student Movement" was purely inspired by R. Kelly. I made the beat on a Friday night. I was home alone, and I remember I had all the lights off. My washroom in my house also serves as my studio, so I was making the beat and I turned on the mic and free-styled the whole song. I'd just returned from South Africa. So my mind was on South Africa and my rhythm was [inspired by] R. Kelly.
B&N.com: Tell me about "Act III, Scene 2 (Shakespeare)."
SW: That song's taken from Act III, Scene 2 of Julius Caesar, where Mark Antony delivers the speech "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears." It's a powerful play, and the first play I ever did. When I was in third grade, I played Mark Antony. The amazing thing about that speech is that Caesar -- the great ruler and Mark Antony's friend -- has been murdered by Brutus, Cassius, and other conspirators. They threatened to murder Mark Antony, too, but they want the people to remain calm and cool. So during Caesar's funeral, Antony delivers this heart-wrenching speech that's like, I loved Caesar, but Brutus says he was too ambitious, and Brutus is an honorable man. The second part of Antony's speech begins with: " If you have tears, prepare to shed them now," and that's how I begin the second verse of the song. Eventually, Antony reveals Caesar's body, with the bloodstained cloak where Brutus's and Cassius's daggers went through. So the analogy is to our current administration, from the stolen election on down. I've been trying to write anthems for a long time. And I thought of that for "Act III, Scene 2," in the sense that if there were going to be some sort of riotous overthrow where the youth was like "no, f**k this," how would I add to this musically?
B&N.com: What are your favorite anthems?
SW: "Fight the Power" by Public Enemy and "Optimistic" by Radiohead.
B&N.com: Those songs are mantra-like.
SW: Mantras and anthems go hand-in-hand. The most beautiful part in that Radiohead song is the chorus of, where it's just open-air screaming. It's almost beyond the power of a mantra, because the Tao says, that which can be told is not the eternal Tao -- it's almost beyond words.
B&N.com: "Black Stacey" has an anthemic chorus.
SW: A friend of mine calls "Black Stacey" the young black boys anthem. I don't know what I'd call it. I wouldn't want to alienate anyone, because the song is about alienation. [laughs]
B&N.com: But alienation is what unifies a lot of people.
SW: Exactly, because even if someone didn't grow up with those same concerns, I think they can relate to feeling alienated.
B&N.com: Did people really call you Black Stacey?
SW: Yeah, my middle name is Stacey. The song comes from my experience from inception up until I went to college. I was always into dressing [fly], but I wasn't always into how I looked. People would say stuff like, "You're kind of cute, to be so dark." As I recall in the song, I had a habit of telling people off when they would pick on my complexion. The line in the song goes, " Oh, just because my skin doesn't show traces of my ancestors being raped." I used to say that all the time, jokingly. But that was my defense.
B&N.com: Your music is powerful, yet humble. One example of that is in "Act III, Scene 2," where you say something about wanting to fight but being scared to fight.
SW: It's about looking at the state of affairs and it making you angry. Every time I fought as a kid, regardless of how justified it was or how well I did when the fight finished, I had tears in my eyes. I could not fight without crying. Why did it have to get to this point? You know, I never wanted to be there. I remember during the Rodney King trial, I was in Atlanta and there were riots. We went downtown and threw garbage cans through bank windows. I remember thousands of us marching downtown from the University of Atlanta, and there were white people coming out to see what was happening. And the first white person a black people saw it was -- [gestures hand to fist]. And all of a sudden I'm standing in the middle of this scene crying and saying, "This isn't what we need to do," because I'm watching innocent people being pummeled.
B&N.com: Do you ever feel conflicted that you are a leader, and people could follow you blindly?
SW: If you listen to my stuff, my whole purpose is to get people to think for themselves. My music is meant to help people raise questions. In many ways, I'm a follower. We all take turns taking the lead and following. I remember when I decided to twist my hair for the first time in 1990. My dad was so pissed that he decided he wasn't going to talk to me. He thought I was just following a trend. He said, "If everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it?" I was like, "No, but Dad, you're a Baptist minister. If everyone started walking into churches, would you want me to follow that trend?" Public Enemy and Spike Lee made it popular to read The Autobiography of Malcolm X. Not all trends are bad.
September 16, 2004
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